Curse

Xenomortis · Nov 22, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strife17

insufficient knowledge of the quests.

This and people running shit builds are why the PuGs are failing.
Really, there's nothing that can be done about that and I do not advocate changes to lessen the difficulty when those are the only real issues.

Reflect · Nov 22, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I've done it twice so far.
Team :
A/E Tank
2x Whatever/Derv Melees
SS necro with Great dwarven weapon
Imbagon + "Can't touch this"
RoJ monk + SoH
UA Monk
PnH Monk
takes ~2,30 hours

Abedeus · Nov 22, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

You have an A/E tank, an Imbagon (the hell?!) and 3 monks. Defense overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflect

I herd there was a place called Slaver's Exile.

Shhhhut up, don't mention the fact that they can simply change the UW quests so they won't reset if you leave or get kicked out. You would still be kicked out after death, but you don't have to repeat everything, just the quests you haven't done yet.

It would also defeat one of the purposes people find SC builds - they wouldn't have the argument that "it takes 3 hours to do".

gah, fail double-post.

go cubs · Nov 22, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

I went in NM with
-2 A/Ds (We all went together so we were basically skele killers)
-2 monks (1 UA 1 HB)
-2 eles (SF maybe?)
-1 spirit spammer
-1 barrage/splinter

Was pretty much all cake, only 1 area where near fail which was 4h because i couldnt kill skeles. After about 3 quests 1 of the A/D's went afk and never came back so once we got to dhuum we couldnt do anything. But based on my previous exp with Dhuum im pretty sure we woulda beaten him. It is NM after all....

Only problem is it took about 3 hours to get to Dhuum, it was a PUG group though so i guess its not too bad for a PUG. And suprisingly it was fun with a PUG group cause i was always tense lol...usually with a Mob group no one dies cause SF is beast....

Only not fun part was that we couldnt fight Dhuum...but i got some good screenies for my desktop...thats all that matters lol

Reformed · Nov 22, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

How is it possible to get to Dhuum and fail him? Most of UW is pretty easy, but Four Horsemen is a rush. I can't imagine passing it and then failing Dhuum! Balanced group with no SF in HM - Dhuum (in HM) he was a pushover.

Balanced means a dozen things to a dozen different people. If you are running some variant on melee supported by SoH/Prot Bond/OotV and ER Infusers then yep it's damn near impossible to fail. I wouldn't call that balanced for the same reason Steel Wall wasn't. Takes more OP crap to beat up Anets even more OP crap they put down there. No doubt a combination of UA/WoH could handle the joint but not in a reasonable time frame. The reason why Mobway fails is because they don't have the sheer direct healing power, it's all diffuse party heals and support. DPS is fine if the team is coordinated enough to know to kill minions as soon as they pop.

Xenomortis · Nov 22, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

If you are running some variant on melee supported by SoH/Prot Bond/OotV and ER Infusers then yep it's damn near impossible to fail. I wouldn't call that balanced for the same reason Steel Wall wasn't. Takes more OP crap to beat up Anets even more OP crap they put down there.

Balanced doesn't mean "not overpowered crap".

No real definition exists, but I would call 2 ER Eles with Prot Bond, some physicals and a couple of midliners a balanced setup. We have distinct frontlines, midlines and backlines. The backliners are using a class typically associated with midlining, but that's fine. ERs can also tank, but shouldn't have to.

If you disagree, then you'll have to explain what you mean by "balanced".

Vulturion · Nov 22, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

So don't you want to kill Dhuum for the sense of achievement it gives? Are you really only there for the rewards?

Maybe it's because Anet made the rewards tangible (titles, HoM, Endchests) why people are only interested in the loot, but before Factions many were trying to do all UW quests, simply because it was possible to.

Does nobody collect all 120 stars in Super Mario anymore, just because it's fun and an achievement?

We're 4 years in to GW now and have already beaten gods before - its a bit late in the game for gleaning fun & achievement from pummeling another special-skilled behemoth.

And let's face it; he's not exactly a tactical masterclass of a challenge - if I were in a team that beat him I'd be one of a] a gimmick tank b] a passive-maintenance or spamming support class or c] any old DPS minion crusher.

Even Super Mario star collecting wouldn't feel the same if you knew that there were 1,000s of other players out there collecting all 120 in 40 minutes using legal tactics.

Reformed · Nov 22, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you disagree, then you'll have to explain what you mean by "balanced".

It's an overused term, at least we agree on it having no real definition anymore. The OP comment is my own personal chuckle at how one thing has just replaced another. I don't expect anywhere near the level of drama and bitching though since this setup is vastly more inclusive.

Karate Jesus · Nov 22, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodvayne

I like everything about the update.
UW is still puggable with balanced groups, and is still MUCH faster with farming groups.
And a hell of a lot more fun now.

I don't know where you're finding good PuG groups, but none of mine have finished UW yet.

Tbh, I've decided to put off UW until they "fix" SF. Too many groups are looking for Mobway, and I really hate perma'ing (it bores the hell out of me). Hopefully, once they nerf it, decent balanced groups will be easier to find. Or maybe I can find a friend who's actually willing to do NM UW with heroes (although, I doubt it).

If I want money, I'll just go do a PuG FoWSC. It's easy to get a group for it now.

Lifestyle · Nov 22, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

I like the addition of Dhuum. New content that is rewarding and satisfying to beat.

However, I don't like how everybody whine that they can't beat him. Come on, you need to think now, what the hell is wrong in that? It's an elite area, it's not meant to be farmed but to kick your butt. You should wipe a few times instead of owning him constantly. Shrug it off and try again.

Abedeus · Nov 22, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

It's an overused term, at least we agree on it having no real definition anymore. The OP comment is my own personal chuckle at how one thing has just replaced another. I don't expect anywhere near the level of drama and bitching though since this setup is vastly more inclusive.

Balanced is the opposite of gimmick.

In gimmick, you have 1 or 2 skills that power the entire builds. If they get interrupted or fail for any other reason, the gimmick shatters and fails. In Balanced teams, there are multiple safety nets so that while they are not as fast or easy as gimmicks, they have a lot lower failure ratio.

But when a gimmick is faster AND safer than balanced teams, it simply means that it's way too strong. 55? Can be interrupted, either PS or HB or any other skill used to keep alive. 600? Interrupts too, also life stealing applies to both of them. Without Spell Breaker that can't be maintained, they can be Shattered, Drained or Interrupted with spells.

Obsidian Flesh too, slow and unwieldy, although can count as Balanced, because sometimes there is an Spell Breaker monk for the rare instances when OF gets interrupted. The team doesn't instantly fail when an OF dies. There is still the option to retreat, then resurrect him or her. What happens when an SF dies? You must use consumables, but since the area he died in usually is not suited for your build, and your builds don't have Rebirth or anything like that... You lose.

Reformed · Nov 22, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

snip

If a so-called balanced team can include gimmicks then it itself is a gimmick. Don't even bother trying to defend ER Infusers in a followup. I have no axe to grind against them, this is not a qq, let me make that abundantly clear right now. They work great, but the entire bar is geared to fuel a spike heal and party wide 95% damage reduction under unlimited energy reserves. It's not obfuscation to point out that SF is no longer the big kid on the block down in UW. This is contrary to the mass hysteria and grossly exaggerated clear times claimed by people here who most likely haven't done the run. Ask anyone who is doing Mobway now and they will tell you it's a :50-1:00 minimum for the average PuG, a comparable time to this as of yet unnamed physicals team. Add the Dhuum fight on top of that and you can expect ~1:30 round trip.

leehai1980 · Nov 22, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

lol come on anet put a grenth in dhuum chamber to help us cos it is weired that he did not come help when he throne was about to be taken by dhuum .

Killing abaddon no god noting to say because there is a pre-god in the team .
now No pre- god or whatever no god still so weired isnt it

Glynn · Nov 22, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I did all 10 quests with PUG (first attempt), it wasn't easy.Without a tank its very hard to do. The spirit bar was kinda new for us and he wiped us in 15min. I wasted 2,5 hours, for nothing.

Arduin · Nov 22, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by leehai1980

lol come on anet put a grenth in dhuum chamber to help us cos it is weired that he did not come help when he throne was about to be taken by dhuum .

Killing abaddon no god noting to say because there is a pre-god in the team .
now No pre- god or whatever no god still so weired isnt it

Lyssa's Muse at the Gate of Madness:

Quote:

Kormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."
<player name>: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."
<player name>: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."
Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."
Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."
Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."
Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."
Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."
Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."
Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."

Also, Grenth asked our help for cleansing the Underworld. If he was able to do that all by himself, he would have. Grenth helps us in the final fight by sending his Reapers, and enabling us to come back to Dhuum's fight after we die.

bloodvayne · Nov 22, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Went in, first PuG, Normal Mode (because it was most of our first times facing Dhuum)
It was the first time I had even done half the quests in UW, Dhuum or not.

We had
Tank
BiP (me)
UA Monk
HB Monk
RoJ Mesmer
Perma Sin
Ele
Rit

Had a few deaths here and there (mostly me from low hp), but we blazed thru the quests, which amazed me because I remembered the place being much harder when I played 3-4 years ago...
We didn't use any consets, until we got to Dhuum, used conset, and DP removers. DP removers were a must, not sure we needed conset tho.

When we GOT to Dhuum, the HB monk left (game crashed, he was pissed, not to mention he had more experience with Dhuum than the rest of us), and the perma and rit died and became spirits. The perma even died a few times as a spirit, and someone wold waste res scrolls now and then (I don't think it was needed, we were doing fine with the perma lying in the floor lol)

Even then, we killed Dhuum easily, just focused on his minions when they appeared, and then focused on him. Making sure to kite like crazy when he started focusing on one target (which was usually the warrior).
The reapers never went below 75% health either, I didn't even know that we apparantly had to keep them alve, but we did.
Going by how easily we did all of UW, I am really tempted to say the same group could have done HM.

It took FOREVER with a balanced PuG, and the only way I'm ever doing it again is with a speed farm group. But it was hella fun, and if a balanced PuG such as that, can clear it the first try, I really don't see any reason to complain about the updates.

TLDR: Don't run shit builds, and don't use shit tactics. It's not that hard

Abedeus · Nov 22, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

If a so-called balanced team can include gimmicks then it itself is a gimmick. Don't even bother trying to defend ER Infusers in a followup. I have no axe to grind against them, this is not a qq, let me make that abundantly clear right now. They work great, but the entire bar is geared to fuel a spike heal and party wide 95% damage reduction under unlimited energy reserves. It's not obfuscation to point out that SF is no longer the big kid on the block down in UW. This is contrary to the mass hysteria and grossly exaggerated clear times claimed by people here who most likely haven't done the run. Ask anyone who is doing Mobway now and they will tell you it's a :50-1:00 minimum for the average PuG, a comparable time to this as of yet unnamed physicals team. Add the Dhuum fight on top of that and you can expect ~1:30 round trip.

Oh, of course ER Infusers are gimmicks. Their enchantments get shattered? Dead. They have no energy to recast the enchantments? Dead. ER getting interrupted/drained/shattered/whatever? Dead. Of course it's a gimmick. I don't defend them, I use them in my H/H teams as primary healers. They are crappy protters, like most heroes, but it gives my monk the chance to protect.

Same goes for Imbagons. All that it takes to destroy them is armor-ignoring damage, life stealing, anti-shout skills and adrenaline blockers. Also, physical hate (blocks, Blindness, Necromancer/Mesmer curses) shuts down their protection, too.

But if you bunch up a few gimmicks into a team, they can count as a balanced. Because if Imbagon fails, the ER can protect the team for few seconds before the primary monk heals Imbagon. If ER fails, the Imbagon and Monk can hold the defense nicely.

However, when there are 6 SFs, if one of them fails, they all fail the mission. Especially if one's death can't be fixed up, because everyone has different builds for different mobs. Also, if one of them dies, this slows down the team in whole. One death leads to either failure or another death.

Besides, it's still much faster for the SF assassins to clear the UW and then kill Dhuum, than for the balanced team.

Xenomortis · Nov 22, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, of course ER Infusers are gimmicks. Their enchantments get shattered? Dead. They have no energy to recast the enchantments? Dead. ER getting interrupted/drained/shattered/whatever? Dead.

Not quite.
If ER is stripped or interrupted you still have (depending on gear) 80-130 energy to spend whilst it recharges.
If you're running bonds, you'd need to drop them as quickly as possible and depend on Prot Spirit for a while, but you're by no means dead.
Healing is harder, as you can't Infuse, but there should be two backliners.

But yes, ER is vulnerable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Same goes for Imbagons. All that it takes to destroy them is armor-ignoring damage, life stealing, anti-shout skills and adrenaline blockers. Also, physical hate (blocks, Blindness, Necromancer/Mesmer curses) shuts down their protection, too.

By that argument, pretty much any paragon build is a gimmick. Oh, and physicals are easily blocked, they must be a gimmick build too!

2 Healing + Protting Backliners
3 Damaging Frontliners
3 Supporting Midliners

That looks balanced to me. It shouldn't matter what form the individual players take, but that's a balanced setup. The numbers aren't fixed either.

Reformed · Nov 22, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Besides, it's still much faster for the SF assassins to clear the UW and then kill Dhuum, than for the balanced team.

I'm trying to tell you I have done it both ways in the last 48 hours. The overwhelming majority of PuG Mobway teams fail, usually due to triggering Lava Font or not immediately going after Skeles. The ER team on the other hand is state of the art in badass for the new UW. What they have in common are comparable clear times. Plain Jane PuGs are going to be left in the dust time-wise because something vastly superior is already up and running and why blow 2-3 hours when 1:30 will do. This is also still a diamond in the rough, I'm sure there is room to cut that time down on average. Don't be deceived by what you see in the party search in TotA either, lfg =/= success.

lustnlood · Nov 22, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

i must say i just finished the new dhuum quest and i cannot say when i was so happy and enjoyed playing a quest chain like the one atm in UW.

This being said i have to say, there is absolutely NO NEED to nerf SF. play played all these funny builds and it worked.. we breezed through UW and Dhuum in HM so well. SF didnt work when we tried it ... but im telling you... it was an amazing addition to UW.

GOOD JOB ANET. you finally got it right. now lets see more of those.